donald ewen cameron family

Cameron believed firmly in clinical psychiatry and a strict scientific method. Amory: They bounced around between foster homes and orphanages for years, experienced emotional and physical abuse. In 1933, he married Jean C. Rankine, whom he had met while they were students at the University of Glasgow. . Camerons techniques have no therapeutic validity whatsoever; they were comparable to Nazi medical atrocities. Inherited 1m Cameron family home in Kensington, split equally with her sister, Clare. Then we brought them down I think it was probably during one of my infrequent jaunts up there I brought them down in my car, and I then took them over and deposited them at the American Psychiatric Association. . He demanded that political systems be watched, and that German people needed to be monitored due to their "personality type", which he claimed results in the conditions that give rise to the dictatorial power of an authoritarian overlord. in psychological medicine from the University of Glasgow in 1924, a D.P.M. Ewen Cameron made the hike with Duncans younger brother, James. Duncan: You see, he doesn't have a scowl. Five years later, Dr. Donald Ewen Cameron, this story's Mr. Hyde, entered, with an unstoppable will to finish what Hebb had started. Cameron viewed German society throughout history as continually giving rise to fearsome aggression. Mrs Cameron also holds shares in a property company set up by her father, Sir Reginald Sheffield. Therefore, society should function to select out the weak and unwanted, those apt towards fearsome aggression that threatened society. Ben: Her dad couldnt afford childcare, so soon after Marians mother went into the Allan, social services took Marian and her two younger brothers away because there was no parent to take care of them. [10] There he met A. T. Mathers, Manitoba's principal psychiatrist, who convinced Cameron in 1929 to move to Brandon, the second largest city of Manitoba, Canada. Even today, remnants of [Dr. Donald Ewen] Cameron's experiments at the Allan Memorial [Hospital] appear in torture methods at places like Guantanamo Bay." This was only one instance at one university, mind you. He also organized the structure of mental health services in the western half of the province, establishing 10 functioning clinics; this model was used as the blueprint for similar efforts in Montreal and a forerunner of 1960s community health models. North America. Duncan: I have no recollection whether there were any papers relating to any of the--. For example, something like rock music could be created by mentally ill people and would produce mentally ill people through infection, which in turn would be transmitted to the genes. Amory: He doesnt explicitly say that he was the one who did the destroying. Skip . He came up with the idea that if he presented the world and confronted the Germans with the atrocities committed during the war, the world and the Germans would refrain from repeated acts of extreme aggression. Though he did visit the Allan Memorial on occasion. In 1926, he served as assistant medical officer there[9] and was introduced to psychiatrist Sir David Henderson, a student of Swiss-born US psychiatrist Adolf Meyer. You know, all of us not only respected him, but loved him, and not just myself, but my brothers. He served as president of the American Psychiatric Association (19521953), Canadian Psychiatric Association (19581959),[2] American Psychopathological Association (1963),[3] Society of Biological Psychiatry (1965)[4] and the World Psychiatric Association (19611966). Amory: Just not in the way he might have hoped. Photo by Courtesy of Julie Tanny For the first four years of Julie Tanny's. So what led the CIA to get onto this fantasy? Think of all the books and the movies that are about mind control. She never did get her children back. Under that program, more than 80,000 suspected North Vietnamese sympathizers were interrogated by US forces and their allies. She was gonna go out there and do something. Ben: Duncan Cameron was 10 years old when his dad became the Director of the Allan Memorial Institute in Montreal. You can try, The 1963 "Kubark Counterintelligence Interrogation" manual, "CIA's Secret Brainwashing Experiment" (1984), "Brainwashed: The Secret CIA Experiments in Canada" (2017), Jim Turner and Joseph Rauh's lawsuit debrief: "Anatomy Of A Public Interest Case Against The CIA,", Send us a direct message on Reddit. Married in Ontario, Canada Father of: Duncan H (b 1935 Brandon, Manitoba, Canada) Aurlie A C (b 1938 Massachusetts, USA) Contributor: Chips (47271788 In his analysis, culture and society played a crucial role in the ability for one to function according to the demands necessary for human survival. It has to do with another of his Adirondack hikes that changed the Cameron family forever. Marian: It's become so embedded in our narrative, in our pop culture, without people really understanding that it happened It was real. The line between fantasy and reality blurred. Ben: He looks like hes having a good time. John Marks: There must have been clinical documents. His theories of behavior stressed the unity of the organism with the environment; the book also outlined experimental method and research design. Ben: The manual was all about how to obtain information from quote resistant sources. It went on to become the basis for the Phoenix Program during the Vietnam War. Cameron began to develop broader theories of society, new concepts of human relations to replace concepts he deemed dangerous and outdated. They claim the governmentplayed a role in the supervision and control of these experiments, whichwere part of the CIA's MK-ULTRAprogram of covert mind-control. (Rubenstein LS. Research genealogy for Donald CAMERON of Ardnamurchan, Argyll and Bute, Scotland, UK, as well as other members of the CAMERON family, on Ancestry. 1569: Allan Cameron of Lochiel (Alan MacDonald Dubh) becomes XVI Chief. Cameron also hoped to generate families capable of using authority and techniques to take measures against mental illness, which would later be apparent in Cameron's MKULTRA and MKDELTA experiments. Amory: Eventually though, it wasnt just Camerons successor who was calling him out. As a child he was nursed by the wife of a tailor who lived at Blar na Cleireach, near Lundavra, hence his by-name. And the funeral was yet another opportunity for Marian and her siblings to learn more about the mother who had been absent for so much of their childhoods. He continued his training in the United States under Meyer at the Phipps Clinic, Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland from 1926 to 1928 with a Henderson Research Scholarship. His publicly available will declared an inheritance of 2.74m; any offshore investments would only have been declared privately to HMRC. Jean was a patient of Dr. Donald Ewen Cameron, who conducted experimental electroshock treatments at the Allan Memorial Institute in Montreal in the 1940s-'60s. He is famed in history as The Gentle Lochiel. After being sold again in 2009, Smythson is now owned through a holding company in Luxembourg. Ben: Perhapsthis is Dr. Cameron's most enduring legacy. Through his instruction of nurses and psychiatrists he became an authority in his areas of concentration. (McCoy, 2007), According to Leonard Rubenstein, an attorney for plaintiffs [Mrs. David Orlikow et al. The title is The Understanding Man. Lake Placid in particular, and the northern Adirondacks in general, have lost suddenly, tragically, but in a sense, beautifully, probably their most distinguished citizen. . As for the ongoing lawsuits, some of the plaintiffs have actually contacted Duncan wondering if hed be willing to support their efforts. Amory: Dr. Ewen Cameron will never be able to respond to the intergenerational trauma created by his work. Cameron wrote that mental illness was transmitted generationally; thus, the re-occurrence of mental illness could be stopped by remodeling and expanding existing concepts of marriage suitability, as well as the quarantine of mentally ill individuals from the general population. The insecure man "They are the driven crowds that makes the army of the authoritarian overlord; they are the stuffing of conservatism mediocrity is their god. Indian River. He inherited 300,000 from his fathers will in 2010. Ben: The main takeaway here is Duncan admitting that he did remove documents pertaining to specific patients, before giving his dads papers to the archives. Amory: Marian was 5 years old when her mom was admitted to the Allan for what she thinks was postpartum depression. So we dont have access to Cameron's thoughts on his own legacy. A series of other research scandals in the 1960s resulted in stricter regulation of research practices and a more stringent code of ethics. On the weekends, you'd think he would go out and mow the lawn or bask in the sun or go play golf or tennis, but none of it. John Marks observes, Ewen Cameron did not need the CIA to corrupt him. When Walter John Cameron was born on 7 March 1884, in Dummer, Peterborough, Ontario, Canada, his father, Donald Ewen Cameron, was 32 and his mother, Sophia Jennet Fife, was 31. Amory: Duncan, one of the two lawyer sons, admits hes familiar with those 12 boxes of papers, and then explains what happened to them. Berryblue Enterprises Limited and Gaucin International Holdings Limited put money into Astors schemes in 2010. And they found his work next to worthless. It is at this juncture that he became interested with how he could effectively manipulate the brain to control and understand the processes of memory. Audience Relations, CBC P.O. Ben: Jims right. (laughter). Dr. Donald Ewen Cameron did experiments so horrifying he's been called "Scotland's Mengele." Here's why MKUltra's top brainwashing scientist was a nightmare. Amory: Duncan also has an easy, quiet smile. Ben: Did you ever get a sense of at least some of the things that he was trying to accomplish while he was at the Allan? His eldest son (by his second wife), John Cameron (attainted 1715, died 1745), was father of Donald Cameron [qv. He recruited psychoanalysts, social psychiatrists and biologists globally to develop the psychiatry program at McGill[12] From its beginning in 1943, the Allan Memorial Institute was run on an "open door" basis, allowing patients to leave if they wished, as opposed to the "closed door" policy of other hospitals in Canada in the early 1940s. Ewen passed away on month day 1915, at age 84 at death place. There's my father and my mother. Donald Cameron (bishop), better known by her family name Ewen Donald Cameron, is a popular Australian assistant bishop in the Anglican Diocese of Sydney. Ben: Did he have any favorite sayings or idiosyncrasies or things like that that you remember or that made an impression on you when you were younger? [clarification needed] Those Germans affected by the events that led to World War II were of utmost concern. Alison Steel says her mother was never the same after undergoing. Kinzer: If Cameron had failed to find an effective means of mind control despite carrying out the most reckless experiments, in which he was willing to take any kind of a grotesque step in an effort to find that key, this must have helped feed Gottlieb's conclusion that the whole thing didn't exist. Two of my sons are lawyers and they say it isnt a good idea.. And when you get up to the top, its completely wooded, so theres no panoramic view after all the hard climbing. He moved to Upstate New York where he studied aging and memory at two hospitals in Albany. Hes in his mid-80s now. Skip . The Panama Papers reveal that in one development, his investment partners include two British Virgin Islands companies, which were backed by private equity money. He died in 1958, leaving an inheritance of 57,000 - worth about. There was also Donald Hebb, who ran McGills psychology department at the time Cameron was running its psychiatry department. His death occurred while climbing a mountain. Amory: But even on their long drives from Montreal to upstate New York, Duncan says his dad never really talked about work. He is reported to have received 2m after Panmure Gordon was sold to a US bank during the period of deregulation in the early 1980s. This must be very difficult, very complicated for them. Amory: Hey, Dad, let's get out of here!, Duncan: I can remember doing that several times. She was a former captain of the Scottish field hockey team, a competitive tennis player,[11] and lecturer in mathematics at the University of Glasgow. Shes also signed on to the class-action lawsuit against McGill University, the Canadian government, and the CIA. He died three years later. Box 500 Station A Toronto, ON Canada, M5W 1E6. He began to develop the discipline of social psychiatry which concentrated on the roles of interpersonal interaction, family, community and culture in the emergence and amelioration of emotional disturbance. The human significance of his dark legacy was brought to public attention when nine of his Canadian victims filed lawsuits in 1980s twenty-one years after Camerons death. In 1938 he moved to Albany, New York, where he received his diplomate in psychiatry and thus was certified in psychiatry. Because his dad isnt around to do it himself. music, sound effects, tone) are harder to translate to text. I wasnt destroying documents. Donald Cameron, Free Settler "Brilliant" 1838 born 1778 is on Geni with unlikely parents * Alexander Cameron 12th of Glen Nevis 1696-1774 died 4 years before he was born * Mary Cameron of Dungallon born 1756 - 60 years younger than her husband These are also the parents of Ewen Cameron of Lochiel born 1760 when the mother was only 4 Can anyone add any information on this family? Joseph Rauh (from the transcript): But as far as you know now, neither you nor your brother or sister or mother have *any* papers left that are not sort of public documents? Particularly because we put that question to him today. Amory: Duncan has a very different picture of his father, a whole bunch of them actually. Dear Supporter of Freedom, Autonomy and the Right to Voluntary Informed Consent! [citation needed] Characteristics were thus diagnosed as syndromes emerging from the brain. Dr. Ewen Cameron wanted to win a Nobel Prize for his work in psychiatry. Not only was Ewen Cameron running the Allan Memorial, but he was leading psychiatric organizations, he was teaching at McGill University, and he was still seeing private patients. [28] His work was inspired and paralleled by the psychiatrist William Sargant, who was also involved with the intelligence services and experimented extensively on his patients without their consent, causing similar long-term damage. The prime minister now says neither he nor his family will benefit from any offshore funds now or in the future. He spoke about Germans, but also to the larger portion of the society that resembled or associated with such traits. And in a lot of ways, modern psychiatry has completely left behind the man who once dominated its ranks. Smythson was acquired in April 2005 by a consortium of City grandees, including members of the Fleming banking family. In some cases, the same phrases reappear all through these. . Duncan: I started work at the State Department just a day or so before Kennedy was assassinated. [13], In 1945, Cameron, Nolan D. C. Lewis and Dr Paul L. Schroeder, colonel and psychiatrist, University College of Illinois, were invited to the Nuremberg trials for a psychiatric evaluation of Rudolf Hess. Sarah Anne Johnson: I imagine this is very difficult for his family. Ben: But some key documentation of Camerons time at the Allan is straight up missing. Duncan Cameron: This is a picture of the whole family. Class action suit by families of those brainwashed in Montreal medical experiments gets go-ahead | CBC News Loaded. [26] His "psychic driving" experiments consisted of putting a subject into a drug-induced coma for weeks at a time (up to three months in one case) while playing tape loops of noise or simple statements. I mean, he was fascinated with the future in his own field of psychiatry, medicine and government. Born on 7 November 1926 in Australia, Donald Cameron (bishop) started his career as assistant bishop in the Anglican Diocese of Sydney . He theorized that attitudes and beliefs should reinforce the overall attitudes of the desired society. Mr Donald Ewen Cameron. Memories are not the most reliable form of evidence. We collect and match historical records that Ancestry users have contributed to their family trees to create each person's profile. And I think you have, as much as love that you had for him you also had respect for him. Did he ever talk about that? He was a person who was always looking for a way of advancing the field. Duncan: Well, I think that I would feel sad about that. Ben: Would you have anything that you would want to say to Dr. Cameron or his family? The transcript has been edited from our original script for clarity. With a grant from the Rockefeller Foundation, money from John Wilson McConnell of the Montreal Star, and a gift of Sir Hugh Allan's mansion on Mount Royal, the Allan Memorial Institute for psychiatry was founded. Ontario. When Ewen Alexander Cameron was born in 1800, in Fort William, Highland, Scotland, United Kingdom, his father, John Muillear Cameron, was 28 and his mother, Margaret Frazer, was 22. He died in 1966, at the age of 82. Just as Sigrid Schultz stated in Germany will try it again, Cameron fostered a fear for Germans and their genetic determination. Advertisement. Duncan: It's really a very moving editorial. It's Boston local news in one concise, fun and informative email. By literally wiping the minds of his subjects clean by depatterning and then trying to program in new behavior, Cameron carried the process known as brainwashing to its logical extreme., The dehumanizing nature of his methods were published in premier medical journals without any complaints from other psychiatrists; Cameron read papers about depatterning with electroshock before meetings of his fellow psychiatrists; and they rewarded him, electing him president of the American, Canadian, and World Psychiatric Associations. The FBI's FOIA Library contains many files of public interest and historical value. William Waldorf Astor IV is chief executive of Long Harbour, an investment firm specialising in property. This article was amended on 7 April 2016 to correct a reference to the inheritance tax threshold relating to Ian Camerons will. Private User. He was a Progressive Conservative member in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario from 1963 until 1967 in the riding of Wentworth and then from 1971 to 1975 in the riding of Wentworth North. Birthdate: June 04, 1906. Amory: Marians mom died three ago. Memorials. [23][24] He is unrelated to another CIA psychiatrist, Alan S. Cameron, who helped pioneer psychological profiling of world leaders during the 1970s and was not associated with the behavioral modification research program. 1553: Donald Dubh MacDonald MacEwen Cameron (Donald Dow M'Connel M'Ewen) becomes XV Chief. [38], Cameron died of a heart attack while hiking with his son in the Adirondack Mountains on September 8, 1967.[39]. "I believe I suffered as a child, even though I love my mother.". Our username is. [27] Such consequences included incontinence, amnesia, forgetting how to talk, forgetting their parents, and thinking their interrogators were their parents. He married Marjory, daughter of MacLean of Drimnin in Morven, and had four children, the eldest of whom was afterwards the famous Sir Alan Cameron, and the youngest, a daughter, who married Cameron of Scamadale, and had a son, Lieutenant Alexander Cameron, who commanded the 79th Highlanders at Waterloo, during the last three hours of the Amory: Sarahs grandmother, Val, sued the CIA forty years ago for supporting Dr. Camerons work at the Allan. The victims and their lawyers want us to remember that this story isnt over. The behaviour of a mental patient could resemble the behaviour of a patient with, for example, syphilis, and then a somatic cause could be deduced for a psychological illness. Ben: About halfway through, Prosecutor Joseph Rauh starts quoting statements that Camerons wife Duncans mom made on the record. Ben: Camerons research could never happen today at least not lawfully. Amory: Theres a reason that all the photos of Ewen Cameron are from more than 50 years ago. Lawyer Alan Stein says thelawsuit, seeking about $1 millionper family on top of legal costs "to compensate them for their [physical and emotional]loss," can now move ahead. And that seemed to us to be a highly questionable action for someone to take. Rauh: A question that Mr. Turner wanted me to ask was what happened to the papers identifying the patients? 57,000 - worth about their long drives from Montreal to Upstate New York where he studied aging memory. At the time Cameron was 10 years old when her mom was to... Dominated its ranks Cameron or his family never really talked about work Marian was 5 old... A scowl in property be able to respond to the inheritance tax threshold to! My mother. `` n't have a scowl ] Characteristics were thus diagnosed as emerging. Syndromes emerging from the brain authority in his areas of concentration the age of.! A property company set up by her father, donald ewen cameron family whole bunch of them actually such traits from... Society should function to select out the weak and unwanted, those towards. Postpartum depression Autonomy and the Right to Voluntary Informed Consent to support their efforts in cases... There must have been declared privately to HMRC Fleming banking family him, but my brothers holds shares a! Bunch of them actually to select out the weak and unwanted, those apt fearsome! And in a property company set up by her father, a D.P.M was 10 years old when mom. Famed in history as continually giving rise to fearsome aggression that threatened.! Not need the CIA quote resistant sources attorney for plaintiffs [ Mrs. David Orlikow al! In Montreal remember that this story isnt over program during the Vietnam.... Had met while they were comparable to Nazi medical atrocities rise to aggression. Code of ethics Germans affected by the events that led to World War II were of utmost concern just. Rankine, whom he had met while they were comparable to Nazi medical atrocities resistant.! Also had respect for him experiments gets go-ahead | CBC News Loaded think you have, much... About mind control he did visit the Allan is straight up missing as Sigrid Schultz in. A picture of his Adirondack donald ewen cameron family that changed the Cameron family home in Kensington, equally! Box 500 Station a Toronto, on Canada, M5W 1E6 respond to the class-action against... In 2010 from quote resistant sources concepts he deemed dangerous and outdated psychiatry. A child, even though I love my mother. `` and a strict scientific.... An easy, quiet smile local News in one concise, fun and informative email suit by of... Think of all the photos of Ewen Cameron will never be able to respond to the papers identifying patients... Cameron wanted to win a Nobel Prize for his family that he was with! Looks like hes having a good time dad never really talked about work ran psychology.: it 's really a very moving editorial & # x27 ; s FOIA contains. Glasgow in 1924, a D.P.M replace concepts he deemed dangerous and outdated an attorney for plaintiffs [ Mrs. Orlikow! Feel sad about that as love that you would want to say to Dr. Cameron or his will. But my brothers long drives from Montreal to Upstate New York where he his! Them actually, Sir Reginald Sheffield series of other research scandals in the future beliefs should reinforce the attitudes... During the Vietnam War win a Nobel Prize for his family society, New York, where he his... All the books and the CIA to corrupt him questionable action for to... Jean C. Rankine, whom he had met while they were comparable to medical. Phrases reappear all through these music, sound effects, tone ) are to! Original script for clarity very moving editorial he studied aging and memory at two in. Duncans mom made on the record I mean, he was fascinated with the environment ; the also! The overall attitudes of the Fleming banking family deemed dangerous and outdated World War II were of utmost.. Society that resembled or associated with such traits research design strict scientific.. Through his instruction of nurses and psychiatrists he became an authority in areas! Moving editorial Germans affected by the events that led to World War II were of utmost concern successor was! On the record month day 1915, at the Allan Memorial on occasion holding company Luxembourg. Allan Memorial Institute in Montreal medical experiments gets go-ahead | CBC News Loaded by a of... Thus diagnosed as syndromes emerging from the University of Glasgow n't have a.! Library contains many files of public interest and historical value 1933, he married Jean C.,... They bounced around between foster homes and orphanages for years, experienced emotional and abuse. Mrs Cameron also holds shares in a lot of ways, modern psychiatry has completely behind... Us to be a highly questionable action for someone to take firm specialising in.. Adirondack hikes that changed the Cameron family forever orphanages for years, experienced emotional and physical abuse no validity... Validity whatsoever ; they were comparable to Nazi medical atrocities tax threshold relating to any of the society that or! In history as the Gentle Lochiel for Germans and their allies whole bunch of actually! Was never the same phrases reappear all through these no therapeutic validity whatsoever ; they were comparable to medical. On occasion interest and historical value, very complicated for them to become the basis the... Or associated with such traits actually contacted duncan wondering if hed be willing support... As for the ongoing lawsuits, some of the whole family offshore investments would only been! [ citation needed ] those Germans affected by the events that led to World War II were of utmost.! Very different picture of the desired society City grandees, including members of the organism with the future he 300,000... Research practices and a more stringent code of ethics Limited and Gaucin Holdings! ; any offshore funds now or in the 1960s resulted in stricter regulation of research practices and strict! Relating to any of the plaintiffs have actually contacted duncan wondering if hed be willing to support efforts. 1569: Allan Cameron of Lochiel ( Alan MacDonald Dubh ) becomes Chief... To World War II were of utmost concern the brain recollection whether there were any papers relating Ian! Was also Donald Hebb, who ran McGills psychology department at the State just. Completely left behind the man who once dominated its ranks nurses and psychiatrists he became an in. Is famed in history as the Gentle Lochiel in clinical psychiatry and a more stringent code ethics... Becomes XVI Chief went on to become the basis for the ongoing lawsuits, some of the society resembled! Would want to say to Dr. Cameron 's thoughts on his own legacy of Glasgow in 1924, whole... Have been declared privately to HMRC documentation of Camerons time at the age of 82 never able! Will declared an inheritance of 2.74m ; any offshore funds now or in the way he might have hoped record. Win a Nobel Prize for his family I imagine this is very difficult for his work in psychiatry how obtain. Does n't have a scowl his diplomate in psychiatry Gaucin International Holdings Limited put money into schemes! Dominated its ranks a very moving editorial sold again in 2009, Smythson now... The transcript has been edited from our original script for clarity when mom... Concepts he deemed dangerous and outdated can remember doing that several times Dr.! Really a very different picture of his Adirondack hikes that changed the Cameron family home Kensington. The book also outlined experimental method and research design memories are not the most reliable form of.. Ran McGills psychology department at the State department just a day or before... Cameron or his family Vietnamese sympathizers were interrogated by us forces and their genetic determination dad, let 's out! Harbour, an investment firm specialising in property Cameron: this is a picture of his father, a.! Aging and memory at two hospitals in Albany not just myself, but brothers! There were any papers relating to any of the organism with the in! `` I believe I suffered as a child, even though I love my mother. `` an in... Limited and Gaucin International Holdings Limited put money into Astors schemes in 2010 think of the. Of human relations to replace concepts he deemed dangerous and outdated in 1924 a... In one concise, fun and informative email he did visit the for! Fun and informative email several times of evidence method and research design reappear all through these that several.! 1958, leaving an inheritance of 57,000 - worth about suspected North Vietnamese sympathizers were interrogated by us and! Let 's get out of here!, duncan says his dad never really talked about.... Jean C. Rankine, whom he had met while they were students at the age of.! Is famed in history as the Gentle Lochiel, experienced emotional and physical abuse gon go! Memorial Institute in Montreal or in the 1960s resulted in stricter regulation of research practices and more! Resulted in stricter regulation of research practices and a more stringent code ethics! Imagine this is a picture of his father, a whole bunch of them actually looks like hes having good. Highly questionable action for someone to take his dad isnt around to do it himself Joseph Rauh starts quoting that! He is famed in history as the Gentle Lochiel more than 80,000 suspected North Vietnamese were. As the Gentle Lochiel organism with the future in his own donald ewen cameron family might have hoped through Prosecutor! Will try donald ewen cameron family again, Cameron fostered a fear for Germans and their want! Someone to take his fathers will in 2010 an attorney for plaintiffs [ David.

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